Comments on: We’re Not The Gatekeepers…And Neither Are You http://blog.ellusionist.com/were-not-the-gatekeepersand-neither-are-you/ Tue, 14 May 2013 16:55:38 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: JDC http://blog.ellusionist.com/were-not-the-gatekeepersand-neither-are-you/comment-page-1/#comment-596 JDC Thu, 14 Feb 2008 20:26:35 +0000 http://blog.ellusionist.com/were-not-the-gatekeepersand-neither-are-you/#comment-596 Good afternoon Steve. I was just wondering what yours or ellusionist's response would be to the last post I submitted. Sincerely, -JDC- Good afternoon Steve. I was just wondering what yours or ellusionist’s response would be to the last post I submitted.

Sincerely,

-JDC-

]]> By: Zovello http://blog.ellusionist.com/were-not-the-gatekeepersand-neither-are-you/comment-page-1/#comment-594 Zovello Thu, 14 Feb 2008 19:30:11 +0000 http://blog.ellusionist.com/were-not-the-gatekeepersand-neither-are-you/#comment-594 Forty-five years ago, as a teen interested in magic, I "wandered" into Lou Tannen's magic shop on 42nd Street in New York City, where all the pro's used to gather on Saturday afternoons. Standing behind the counter was Dave Soh, one of Tannen's salespeople, demonstrating a slow, deliberate, bare-sleeved coin vanish. So clean was Soh's effect that I was certain I had inadvertently stumbled upon a "real" magician; I was in awe of him. The "O. Henry" ending to this story is this: A week earlier I had been practicing this SAME sleight out of the old Bobo book on coin magic -- but in the hands of a master coin man like Dave Soh, I didn't even recognize "my" trick as the same effect. Bottom line: When an effect is masterfully performed, it may not even be recognizable to those who have studied its secret. Truly there is a difference between a magically entertaining performance and someone who is "doing tricks." "Tricks" often challenge the viewer to seek an explanation; "real" magic requires no explanation but only the suspension of disbelief. This is because real magic takes place in the mind of its audience, not in the mechanics of its sleights (or boxes, wires, powders, etc.). Real magicians have nothing to fear, therefore, in the casual examination of their methods. Forty-five years ago, as a teen interested in magic, I “wandered” into Lou Tannen’s magic shop on 42nd Street in New York City, where all the pro’s used to gather on Saturday afternoons. Standing behind the counter was Dave Soh, one of Tannen’s salespeople, demonstrating a slow, deliberate, bare-sleeved coin vanish. So clean was Soh’s effect that I was certain I had inadvertently stumbled upon a “real” magician; I was in awe of him.
The “O. Henry” ending to this story is this: A week earlier I had been practicing this SAME sleight out of the old Bobo book on coin magic — but in the hands of a master coin man like Dave Soh, I didn’t even recognize “my” trick as the same effect.
Bottom line: When an effect is masterfully performed, it may not even be recognizable to those who have studied its secret. Truly there is a difference between a magically entertaining performance and someone who is “doing tricks.”
“Tricks” often challenge the viewer to seek an explanation; “real” magic requires no explanation but only the suspension of disbelief.
This is because real magic takes place in the mind of its audience, not in the mechanics of its sleights (or boxes, wires, powders, etc.). Real magicians have nothing to fear, therefore, in the casual examination of their methods.

]]> By: marcus http://blog.ellusionist.com/were-not-the-gatekeepersand-neither-are-you/comment-page-1/#comment-591 marcus Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:52:28 +0000 http://blog.ellusionist.com/were-not-the-gatekeepersand-neither-are-you/#comment-591 I agree presentation is important, but I would just like to mention that your story contradicts your point. You used a different method the second time, a secret, and that was what floored the kid. I'm sure you presented it very well, but your secret is what ultimately fooled the kid. Secrets allow magic to continue and progress. They should be handled with care. My concern is mainstream public advertisement. I agree presentation is important, but I would just like to mention that your story contradicts your point. You used a different method the second time, a secret, and that was what floored the kid. I’m sure you presented it very well, but your secret is what ultimately fooled the kid.

Secrets allow magic to continue and progress. They should be handled with care. My concern is mainstream public advertisement.

]]> By: JDC http://blog.ellusionist.com/were-not-the-gatekeepersand-neither-are-you/comment-page-1/#comment-590 JDC Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:33:12 +0000 http://blog.ellusionist.com/were-not-the-gatekeepersand-neither-are-you/#comment-590 I have been doing card tricks for 10+ years and have recently gotten into coins and mentalism. As far as the topic of discussion, you will always have people who learn a trick and feel it is their place to expose it whether on youtube, metacafe or learnmagictricks.org. This will happen even if advertising does not takes place. These sites have people explaining magic that have absolutely no respect or appreciation for the art and what it takes to create something original. Most of the "tutorials" are so poor that you can turn the sound off before the tutorial even starts, and still figure out how a trick is done because of the shoddy performance. Whether you're professional, amateur or just a hobbyist magician, if you love magic you will not turn to these places to learn it. You would instead learn from those who create and improve illusion by listening to feedback and tips on what works and what helps a performance. I can definitely see an advantage to ellusionist wanting to advertise with Celabra-Cadabra. It would direct interested people to one of the best places to learn cutting edge magic, instead of people throwing magic into a search engine and learning from some 7 year old how not to perform successfully. As far as those who want to know how to do magic, fix their car or bake a cake, they will find the answers if they search hard enough. At least those who have any interest in magic will have an opportunity to learn it right the 1st time. On the other hand, there will also be people who may visit this site just to satisfy a spectator curiosity without the desire to perform, but just know how a trick is executed. Our job should be to make it difficult to figure out how something works without paying for it, and to allow those who are truly interested to buy and learn. My major concern is how we are protected. I would like to reiterate that descriptions of some tricks and accessories should be adjusted to prevent exposure to any lurkers who are not interested in learning magic. As I mentioned earlier, it would take a short period of time for anyone to figure out how coinbite/folding coin works when they see that the refills are rubber-band replacements. I know that this can be more discreet since "Box Monster" has a refill option which does not describe what the refill is. I bought the M5 about a year ago and have only been caught once in all the performances I have done. I would be pretty upset if after paying $170.00 I tried a future routine and was called out by a spectator who knew the method because of the products description. Such descriptions like "1 custom wrist strap that fits the M5 perfectly, Shimmed Shell Coin: This coin can be made to ‘vanish’ or change into another coin (the latter is accomplished by placing a smaller coin under the shell)," or even "Shimming Supplies: Additional shim foil and wire for making your own shimmed playing cards, business cards, envelopes, etc. Simply glue two surfaces together with shim material between them and you will have a shimmed item that can be detected or affected by a MAGNET". These descriptions either hint to or directly give away the methods to some of your tricks. What are your thoughts ellusionist? -JDC- I have been doing card tricks for 10+ years and have recently gotten into coins and mentalism.

As far as the topic of discussion, you will always have people who learn a trick and feel it is their place to expose it whether on youtube, metacafe or learnmagictricks.org. This will happen even if advertising does not takes place. These sites have people explaining magic that have absolutely no respect or appreciation for the art and what it takes to create something original. Most of the “tutorials” are so poor that you can turn the sound off before the tutorial even starts, and still figure out how a trick is done because of the shoddy performance. Whether you’re professional, amateur or just a hobbyist magician, if you love magic you will not turn to these places to learn it. You would instead learn from those who create and improve illusion by listening to feedback and tips on what works and what helps a performance.

I can definitely see an advantage to ellusionist wanting to advertise with Celabra-Cadabra. It would direct interested people to one of the best places to learn cutting edge magic, instead of people throwing magic into a search engine and learning from some 7 year old how not to perform successfully. As far as those who want to know how to do magic, fix their car or bake a cake, they will find the answers if they search hard enough. At least those who have any interest in magic will have an opportunity to learn it right the 1st time.

On the other hand, there will also be people who may visit this site just to satisfy a spectator curiosity without the desire to perform, but just know how a trick is executed. Our job should be to make it difficult to figure out how something works without paying for it, and to allow those who are truly interested to buy and learn.

My major concern is how we are protected. I would like to reiterate that descriptions of some tricks and accessories should be adjusted to prevent exposure to any lurkers who are not interested in learning magic. As I mentioned earlier, it would take a short period of time for anyone to figure out how coinbite/folding coin works when they see that the refills are rubber-band replacements. I know that this can be more discreet since “Box Monster” has a refill option which does not describe what the refill is. I bought the M5 about a year ago and have only been caught once in all the performances I have done. I would be pretty upset if after paying $170.00 I tried a future routine and was called out by a spectator who knew the method because of the products description. Such descriptions like “1 custom wrist strap that fits the M5 perfectly, Shimmed Shell Coin: This coin can be made to ‘vanish’ or change into another coin (the latter is accomplished by placing a smaller coin under the shell),” or even “Shimming Supplies: Additional shim foil and wire for making your own shimmed playing cards, business cards, envelopes, etc. Simply glue two surfaces together with shim material between them and you will have a shimmed item that can be detected or affected by a MAGNET”.

These descriptions either hint to or directly give away the methods to some of your tricks.

What are your thoughts ellusionist?

-JDC-

]]> By: Matthew Phillips http://blog.ellusionist.com/were-not-the-gatekeepersand-neither-are-you/comment-page-1/#comment-589 Matthew Phillips Thu, 14 Feb 2008 07:55:18 +0000 http://blog.ellusionist.com/were-not-the-gatekeepersand-neither-are-you/#comment-589 Well this is a very interesting topic. I for one am curious about this new show coming to VH1. The main thing I was worried about was exposure of tricks. Like for example I pictured behind the scenes of celebrities with magicians and the magician is explaining what moves to do at a certain point during a trick and showing how frustrated the celebrity is because the move is difficult. Well to me, I wouldn't want that move to be exposed. It was brought to my attention that nothing will be exposed on the show which relaxed me a bit. The thing I am confused about is some of the comments on the blog. I really am tired of people complaining about how their audience don't like to be fooled. If that is the negative vibe you get from your audience then you are completely doing the trick wrong and should not perform it for anybody until you get it right. remember there is a difference between telling your audience "hey, let me show you a magic trick" when instead you should be saying something like " now i would like to SHARE something with you." can you tell the difference in those two sentences? If you can't then I suggest you don't perform until you do. People come up to me many times telling me they know how that is done because they saw it on a website. That is why I learn many many different methods of doing the same trick. It is something we all should do. Brad/Steve is right. If people are really interested in magic, they will drop some cash to learn something, just like we all did. If they just want to know how the trick is done they are not gonna drop any cash. yes it is unfortunate that there are exposure on YouTube and other sites and I have tried to reason with them like mature adults, but it was obvious I was not dealing with mature people so that went nowhere. I will leave you with a very short story..........I was performing (close up) at a show, kid comes up to me with his brand new black, tiger, ghost, tally ho (oh hell you get the idea) deck. I do a trick. He tells me he knows how that trick is done and proceeds to pull out the deck and tried to show everyone. Well this is my show and i told him in my own little way that now was not the time. after the show i had a little talk with the boy and told him some of the rules of being a magician. Then i asked him if he really knew how the trick was done. long story short i did the trick again for him with a different method and floored him.........floored him hard. that boy has never bothered me during my show again. remember PERFORMANCE IS EVERYTHING, not the secrets. Well this is a very interesting topic. I for one am curious about this new show coming to VH1. The main thing I was worried about was exposure of tricks. Like for example I pictured behind the scenes of celebrities with magicians and the magician is explaining what moves to do at a certain point during a trick and showing how frustrated the celebrity is because the move is difficult. Well to me, I wouldn’t want that move to be exposed. It was brought to my attention that nothing will be exposed on the show which relaxed me a bit. The thing I am confused about is some of the comments on the blog. I really am tired of people complaining about how their audience don’t like to be fooled. If that is the negative vibe you get from your audience then you are completely doing the trick wrong and should not perform it for anybody until you get it right. remember there is a difference between telling your audience “hey, let me show you a magic trick” when instead you should be saying something like ” now i would like to SHARE something with you.” can you tell the difference in those two sentences? If you can’t then I suggest you don’t perform until you do. People come up to me many times telling me they know how that is done because they saw it on a website. That is why I learn many many different methods of doing the same trick. It is something we all should do. Brad/Steve is right. If people are really interested in magic, they will drop some cash to learn something, just like we all did. If they just want to know how the trick is done they are not gonna drop any cash. yes it is unfortunate that there are exposure on YouTube and other sites and I have tried to reason with them like mature adults, but it was obvious I was not dealing with mature people so that went nowhere. I will leave you with a very short story……….I was performing (close up) at a show, kid comes up to me with his brand new black, tiger, ghost, tally ho (oh hell you get the idea) deck. I do a trick. He tells me he knows how that trick is done and proceeds to pull out the deck and tried to show everyone. Well this is my show and i told him in my own little way that now was not the time. after the show i had a little talk with the boy and told him some of the rules of being a magician. Then i asked him if he really knew how the trick was done. long story short i did the trick again for him with a different method and floored him………floored him hard. that boy has never bothered me during my show again. remember PERFORMANCE IS EVERYTHING, not the secrets.

]]> By: Jerome http://blog.ellusionist.com/were-not-the-gatekeepersand-neither-are-you/comment-page-1/#comment-583 Jerome Wed, 13 Feb 2008 22:40:46 +0000 http://blog.ellusionist.com/were-not-the-gatekeepersand-neither-are-you/#comment-583 I thought it was funny that the people critiquing Ellusionist probably had a typo. "Magic is slowly but surely loosing its magic." Did they mean, "Magic is slowly but surely losing its magic"? I suppose you could argue "loosing" is correct in the context of the art being released from it's wonder. However, wonder is a part of the art, not the other way around, so techically the wonder is being released from the art. The correct sentence should be, "Magic has been loosed from magic". I guess that means that "loosed" is the right word, not "loosing". Confused? Me too. I think I'm losing it, but I think they're lost. I thought it was funny that the people critiquing Ellusionist probably had a typo. “Magic is slowly but surely loosing its magic.” Did they mean, “Magic is slowly but surely losing its magic”?

I suppose you could argue “loosing” is correct in the context of the art being released from it’s wonder. However, wonder is a part of the art, not the other way around, so techically the wonder is being released from the art. The correct sentence should be, “Magic has been loosed from magic”. I guess that means that “loosed” is the right word, not “loosing”. Confused? Me too. I think I’m losing it, but I think they’re lost.

]]> By: JDC http://blog.ellusionist.com/were-not-the-gatekeepersand-neither-are-you/comment-page-1/#comment-582 JDC Wed, 13 Feb 2008 22:34:38 +0000 http://blog.ellusionist.com/were-not-the-gatekeepersand-neither-are-you/#comment-582 I can argue either which way. The only thing that worries me is the spectator who browses the site with no intention of buying something. This would be okay if there was enough mystery surrounding a marketed effect and its components. If a spectator skips right through the ellisionist site and comes upon the accessories page, what then? Are we that confident in our presentations when performing coin bite or "pk" effects? It would take less than 5 minutes for someone to read the description of such accessories and know the secret whether it be rubber-band replacements, invisible thread or details of the M-5. Just my thoughts though. -JDC- I can argue either which way. The only thing that worries me is the spectator who browses the site with no intention of buying something. This would be okay if there was enough mystery surrounding a marketed effect and its components.

If a spectator skips right through the ellisionist site and comes upon the accessories page, what then? Are we that confident in our presentations when performing coin bite or “pk” effects? It would take less than 5 minutes for someone to read the description of such accessories and know the secret whether it be rubber-band replacements, invisible thread or details of the M-5.

Just my thoughts though.

-JDC-

]]> By: Johan http://blog.ellusionist.com/were-not-the-gatekeepersand-neither-are-you/comment-page-1/#comment-580 Johan Wed, 13 Feb 2008 19:56:52 +0000 http://blog.ellusionist.com/were-not-the-gatekeepersand-neither-are-you/#comment-580 sam, that was almost poetic how you put that and i agree fully with every word you said sam, that was almost poetic how you put that and i agree fully with every word you said

]]> By: Jonah http://blog.ellusionist.com/were-not-the-gatekeepersand-neither-are-you/comment-page-1/#comment-579 Jonah Wed, 13 Feb 2008 19:27:03 +0000 http://blog.ellusionist.com/were-not-the-gatekeepersand-neither-are-you/#comment-579 yes, thanks for sorting things out there Brad. Everyone has the right to learn magic! yes, thanks for sorting things out there Brad. Everyone has the right to learn magic!

]]> By: Goudinov http://blog.ellusionist.com/were-not-the-gatekeepersand-neither-are-you/comment-page-1/#comment-576 Goudinov Wed, 13 Feb 2008 18:59:57 +0000 http://blog.ellusionist.com/were-not-the-gatekeepersand-neither-are-you/#comment-576 Brilliantly stated, Sam... Thanks for posting that. Brilliantly stated, Sam… Thanks for posting that.

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